Posts: 8
Threads: 1
Joined: Jul 2012
Reputation:
0
Thanks for all the input, yeah,on my monitor dell u3011 which has a native res of 2560x1600 I can see an improvement in graphics using 5x native and therefore I want to play at that res, so if there's anyone with a gtx680 that can give any feedback of the game at 5x native or Perhaps you have a video or benchmarks for the framerate you are getting with that 3gb version of the gtx580 at 5x scaling. I only have the 1.5 gb version, so maybe if I get the gtx 680 it might be worth it.
Sponsored links
Posts: 7.414
Threads: 66
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation:
122
Location: Germany
07-02-2012, 09:40 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-02-2012, 09:44 PM by rama.)
Well, I don't have that kind of hardware but a quick check on google shows that both cards have the same 192GB/s memory bandwith.
Hence assuming this is the limiting factor at x5 scaling, both cards should be equally fast.
http://techreport.com/articles.x/22653/6
Posts: 102
Threads: 1
Joined: Mar 2009
Reputation:
1
(07-02-2012, 08:31 PM)miseru99 Wrote: @Alethram When you use "allow 8 bit textures" in gsdx config, some games can decrease memory usage by alot, but often also increasing by alot gpu core load;], it's often great help, for my radeon HD5670 which has awfull memory bandwidth it can change loads of games from completely unplayable at native to full speed upscaled, as the gpu core load is always much smaller anyway, not sure if that could work with DQ as this game is generally gpu heavy.;]
Oh that, yeap, i read about the 8 bit textures option in some thread, but that affect just the memory load no?, most ps2 games doesn't "eat" more than 2gb ( as far as go my experience) of vram, im talking about memory bandwidth management ( or at least i try to comprehend it, because don't really "know" about what im talking about, that is why i ask), others applications manage to work with bigs texture loads (more than 2gb), and the differences of memory bandwidth are not THAT noticeable.
So the questions are
Why pcsx2 need that much memory bandwidth when others applications that manage the same or more memory loads don't need that much?.
Is there any room for improvement in this area?, or is not a initiative for the staff in try to enhance that because they are happy with it, and also the future generation hard is going to take care of it ( i think it is not going to happen in a near future because the top gama cards are for like how much to now? 4-5 years with almost the same memory bandwidths).
Also, some 1 have a try on the 7970? they have 260gb/sec (besides the shameful and awful drivers, im just talking about horse power ) the difference between AMD and Nvidia in pcsx2 is still noticeable?
Sorry for my english again
Posts: 2.128
Threads: 8
Joined: Jun 2011
Reputation:
112
Nah it's not just load;] if more memory needs to be taken, it has to get through something;]. And that transfer rate is called memory bandwidth. The bigger the stuff you have to transfer, the faster it hits memory bandwidth limitation. Soo "allow 8 bit textures" helps alot with that, causing other problems in the process soo the result differs between games and even different scenes in same game.
Original GS has I don't remember exactly but something like 32GB/s(or was it 64? I don't really remember now and don't wanna lie;]) that's how PS2 was designed to work, obviously not all games have such big needs, many doesn't even use half of it, but in the same time, when you use upscalling you must remember that you don't really multiply 1 thing there, but two;]. x2 is actually 4 times more demanding than native, x4 is 16 times more demanding, etc. Soo even if a game would have a need for let's say 10GB/s of memory transfer, in x5 upscaling it'll be 25 times higher which result in 250gb/s requirement to run at full speed;]. It can get pretty awfull lot in some games, and soo it does.
Posts: 8
Threads: 1
Joined: Jul 2012
Reputation:
0
can you post a video of dq8 at 5x scaling with your 2gb gtx580 so ican see if i get the same kind of slow down or consider getting a 4gb gtx680 (by palit) this wont be the only game i will play but it is so cool to play it in 5x scaling looks amazing!my slow downs on my gtx580 go to 47 50 fps when in battle or many carachters onscreen, a video would be nice to see if you get the same or less slowdown
Posts: 102
Threads: 1
Joined: Mar 2009
Reputation:
1
07-03-2012, 12:10 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-03-2012, 12:12 AM by Alethram.)
(07-02-2012, 10:53 PM)miseru99 Wrote: Nah it's not just load;] if more memory needs to be taken, it has to get through something;]. And that transfer rate is called memory bandwidth. The bigger the stuff you have to transfer, the faster it hits memory bandwidth limitation. Soo "allow 8 bit textures" helps alot with that, causing other problems in the process soo the result differs between games and even different scenes in same game.
Original GS has I don't remember exactly but something like 32GB/s(or was it 64? I don't really remember now and don't wanna lie;]) that's how PS2 was designed to work, obviously not all games have such big needs, many doesn't even use half of it, but in the same time, when you use upscalling you must remember that you don't really multiply 1 thing there, but two;]. x2 is actually 4 times more demanding than native, x4 is 16 times more demanding, etc. Soo even if a game would have a need for let's say 10GB/s of memory transfer, in x5 upscaling it'll be 25 times higher which result in 250gb/s requirement to run at full speed;]. It can get pretty awfull lot in some games, and soo it does.
Oh, that is why!
found this on wikipedia:
Quote:Graphics processing unit: "Graphics Synthesizer" clocked at 147.456 MHz
Pixel pipelines: 16
Video output resolution: variable from 256×224 to 1920×1080 pixels
4 MB Embedded DRAM video memory bandwidth at 48 gigabytes per second (main system 32 MB can be dedicated into VRAM for off-screen materials)
Texture buffer bandwidth: 9.6 GB/s
Frame buffer bandwidth: 38.4 GB/s
Then being the 48gb/sec the maximum bandwidth that a game can use in the Ps2 GS, we need a card with at least 1200gb/sec bandwidth (Good luck with that  ) to run it at x5 at full speed all the time, right?
So:
-Is there any way to know how much memory bandwidth hungry is a game in a scene, there is a tool or something? it may help a lot of ppl to know what they need to run a game at full speed (or even know if there exist what they need to run some scenes at full speed at "x" resolution)
-Also, in other post the devs talk about underclock ( like in the EE hacks ) and overclock the EE, it is possible to make more efficient the GS bandwidth in the same way?, or just need what it need and there is not discussion about?
-What about "overclock" the GS?, is there any benefit on that?
Thx for the explanation it is a lot more clear now how and why that happens, now just rest wait to hard upgrades or a dev that make a GS with different speeds ( it is even possible? ) im right?
@Omegaferrari
I got exactly the same slowdowns dude! i tell u already  , it is because the memory bandwidth, the 680 or the extra ram are not going to help because they have the same bandwidth, i just got the extra ram because they cost me just 10€ more and i play others things that need high vram (mostly mmorpg with a lot of ppl on it)
The only "solution" if u want to play it "flawlessly" is wait to next or even more generation of Gcards with more memory bandwidth at the moment we are stuck here.
To be honest i use to have the same problem, then i just get over it and finish the game, because there is not a near solution.
DQ8 is a great game, more in hd, i know the slowdowns ( the fight ones are present even in lower resolutions do u notice that?, imagine just how much memory bandwidth this game needs sometimes!) tends to suck u out of the action, but don't let it be a let down and enjoy it.
Thx u all for ur time and sorry again for my English.
Posts: 8
Threads: 1
Joined: Jul 2012
Reputation:
0
Well if we only get a 10 fps slow down at 5x we shouldn't be that far off, I get no slowdowns at 4x native, using fraps to record speed, so any one with a gtx680 has any info?
Posts: 102
Threads: 1
Joined: Mar 2009
Reputation:
1
07-03-2012, 12:59 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-03-2012, 01:02 AM by Alethram.)
(07-03-2012, 12:20 AM)Omegaferrari Wrote: Well if we only get a 10 fps slow down at 5x we shouldn't be that far off, I get no slowdowns at 4x native, using fraps to record speed, so any one with a gtx680 has any info?
man, the 680 are going to have the same result, or even a little worst because they have 192.2 bandwidth vs 192.4 of the 580gtx.
if u get a 680 now the only result is that there going to be 6xx€ ( or correspondent currency) less in your bank account xD.
The only card in the market with more memory bandwidth is the 7970 (they have 260gb/sec) but the ATM awful drivers, poor feedback from AMD and plus the historically "inferior" performance of the brand on pcsx2 make them a risky buy.
Posts: 3.559
Threads: 21
Joined: Jul 2010
Reputation:
61
Location: Australia
Total overall bandwidth as a rule is not to be relied on for a cards performance.
the Memory controller in the newer card for example might perform more efficiently, which brings up the Real memory access bandwidth making it perform better than the older cards.
Posts: 2.128
Threads: 8
Joined: Jun 2011
Reputation:
112
As for calculating game needs of memory bandwidth, I don't know any tool, but if you know it's limited by memory bandwidth, and you know your gpu max memory bandwidth, it can be somewhat easily calculated;3.
Assuming you get memory bandwidth limitation and end up with 30fps at NTSC game version, at x5 upscale, having gpu with 192.4 GB/s memory bandwidth that scene would need 384.8 GB/s at x5 or 15.392 GB/s memory bandwidth at native res. I hope the math is clear, as long as you hit the memory bandwidth limitation, maybe there are other factors that will not make this 100% accurate, but is accurate enough to know how much you would need, or what would be max res(including custom ones) you could use for constant full speed;].
|
