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It looks like the Core 2 series is at the end of the line,
#1
At first I didn't notice but AMD has lowered their prices to unbelievable levels.

And they have also effectively killed the Core 2 Duo line in value. Their is no reason to get a Dual core now with amds low prices, their quads not only are priced at about the same as favorites like the e8400, and e8500, but even in single threaded performance they are beating or tying with the Core 2 duos, and with multithreaded performance the dual cores are being blown away. The phenom II X4. Plus if you get a Core 2 Duo, you'll be stuck on a dying platform as well. It looks like if you are going with Intel, it is i7 or bust.

Phenom II X4 955 3.2GHz vs Core 2 Duo e8500 3.16GHz


http://www.anandtech.com/bench/default.aspx?p=55&p2=88
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/default.aspx?p=56&p2=88

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6819115036
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6819103674

The e8500 and the Phenom II X4 955 are priced the same. As you can see in those benchmarks many things are tested from synthetic benchmarks, to 3d rendering, photoshop, gaming, video and audio encoding, compression and even file recovery. In the single threaded apps and in gaming, the Phenom II X4 performs about on par, when the e8500 does win, it is usually by a small win. But notice that when the Phenom II X4 does win, it wins big. Very big, and in games that are threaded for more than 2 cores like Grand theft Auto 4, Far Cry 2, FSX, H.A.W.X, World in Conflict, Supreme Commander, Resident Evil 5, Devil May Cry 4 and even PCSX2 software mode etc. And the many newer games that are going to be released with higher than 2 core support there will be huge boosts in performance over the e8500. Now, the e8500 can get to 4GHz easier, but I'm seeing near 4GHz overclocks on the Phenom II X4 as well. In the end 200mhz wouldn't make much of a difference in performance, once you get to the mid 3GHz you are basically good for just about everything. The extra cores however DO make huge differences and the future in gaming is going to be about using the extra cores since there isn't much more we can do with to get higher clockrates. Everyone was talking about how quadcores are useless because nothing uses quads and once we reach the future, there will be cheaper and better performing quads, well that time is now. We have the cheaper and stronger quads now and they are being taken advantage of. Intel and AMD have plans to branch out with more cores so it seems like Quad cores are the sweetspot for the mainstream gamer today. The LGA 775 line is at the end of it's like, and now it is all about AM3 and LGA 1366/LGA1156. The only reason to get a Core 2 cpu is if you are upgrading to a stronger cpu for your lga 775 motherboard. Plus the Phenom II X4 955 is a Black Edition cpu so it has an unlocked multiplier which makes it easier to overclock than it would be normally.

Here are some more match ups.

Phenom II X4 940/945 vs Core 2 Duo e8400

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/default.a...6819103471
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6819103696
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6819115037

but the thing is, how can AMD do this? the Phenoms and Phenom IIs take a lot of money to make because of the large die sizes so they must be getting low returns by pricing this low.
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#2
Nice... and it's true seems the future is in more parallel threads/cores... but I still dont use any app that could benefit from quad or higher :o (except for the infrequent video encoding)

And I dont know, after all this years i've had with AMD and having troubles with them (mostly cause I only get cheap parts), then changing to Intel (same cheap parts) and well finding them stable as nothing I've had before, I dont think I'd go back to AMD again... the i5 seems interesting tho and price reasonable :3
Core i5 3570k -- Geforce GTX 670  --  Windows 7 x64
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#3
Yeah, the i5s looks like real trouble for the Phenoms they deliver around the same performance as the i7s and they'll be priced very competitively so AMD really needs to deliver something big to keep up.
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#4
Yeah but Intel has made a really serious mistake: It has 3 different sockets out simultaneously! I just don't get what they were thinking when they decided to split the market and limit the choices of the consumer by forcing them to stay on a socket that only supports one line of processors.
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#5
Is there a point to this thread? The Newegg link doesn't work, no actual prices are listed, and when I checked prices at Newegg nothing appeared to be significantly different from some weeks ago. The Phenom II X4 945s are about the same price as the Q9400s, and given a Q9400 smokes it on almost every conceivable benchmark, there's not much of a 'bargain' to be had by buying it.

So if anything killed the C2D, it would have been the C2Q Q9400 when its own prices dropped a couple months ago.
Jake Stine (Air) - Programmer - PCSX2 Dev Team
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#6
(09-02-2009, 08:14 AM)Bositman Wrote: Yeah but Intel has made a really serious mistake: It has 3 different sockets out simultaneously! I just don't get what they were thinking when they decided to split the market and limit the choices of the consumer by forcing them to stay on a socket that only supports one line of processors.

I don't see how having a choice is suddenly having a limit.
We are still in a nasty recession, and many people buying PCs, on a limited budget, really don't care about sockets, they care about their wallets.
Now imagine if Intel had only the I7 LGA 1366 socket motherboards out there, at the price they are currently going for, many people would simply buy AMD.
But then, thinking about it, AMD still have many AM2, AM2+, AM3 boards on sale, so thats also 3 sockets on the market. But now, if you are unlucky enough to end up with a AM2 board (lack of research, perhaps) you are even more limited than if you had went with a Intel 775 board, as many AM2 boards do not support the newer Phenom II chips, or even the older Phenom I. Whereas with the 775 boards, providing you go with at least a P41-P45 chipset (or perhaps even a P35), you can fit anything upto a Q9550, and thats more than enough power for most people for the next couple of years.

I'm self-employed, so I couldn't warrant a expensive PC, as rent, food, and bills, are more important than a PC. But I went with a decent 775 motherboard + E5200, knowing that although 775 is aging I could get a decent overclock that will last me for at least 2 years.
Since I build the machines for a living, I can honestly say that my best-selling PC is, by a long way, a Asus P5QL/Pro + E5200 + Akasa965 combo. Cheap machines, every one overclocks to a minimum of 3ghz on stock voltage, and more than enough power for the people I sell them to, and most are gamers on a budget.

On a last note, without knocking AMD, I know when I buy budget 775 boards, particularly the Asus boards, EXACTLY what the board will take. I don't need to keep googling for AM2+ boards to wonder IF they'll take a PII X3/X4, or the latest X2 550BE chips, or whether they'll need a BIOS update.
I know what the latest AM3 boards take, I know the excellent AMD 790 boards take, but we are far from budget here.
Intel E7500 @ 4.00ghz 400 fsb / Asus P5QL Pro / 4Gb Kingston RAM / PNY nvidia 9800GT 512Mb / Creative X-Fi Music 24 / Vista 64 SP2/
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#7
I fixed the links. The price of the Core 2 Duos are just about the same as those Quads.


also, the Core 2 Quad Q9400 doesn't really beat the Phenom II X4 945. It is priced 20 dollars more and they really trade blows and for the most part are equal. the advantage that the Phenom has is that it is on a platform that is not dying.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/default.aspx?p=76&p2=80

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6819103696
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6819115131

I used the Phenom II X4 940 since that is the only cpu available to bench. The 940 and 945 are basically the same ecept the 940 has a 30W higher tdp, it is black edition, and it doesn't have an ondie memory controller so it loses with memory speed.

The phenom II X4 955 is the same price as the Q9400 and it beats it. And the phenom is still better since the platform is not dying, you'll have options to upgrade.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6819103674
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6819115131

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/default.aspx?p=76&p2=88

Pay attention to which benchmark says lower is better and higher is better, that tricked me a few times.
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#8
(09-02-2009, 03:04 PM)DKTronics Wrote: On a last note, without knocking AMD, I know when I buy budget 775 boards, particularly the Asus boards, EXACTLY what the board will take. I don't need to keep googling for AM2+ boards to wonder IF they'll take a PII X3/X4, or the latest X2 550BE chips, or whether they'll need a BIOS update.
I know what the latest AM3 boards take, I know the excellent AMD 790 boards take, but we are far from budget here.

The AM3 boards are cheap. they are about the same as the AM2+

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.as...6813128392 It's not a 790 but it is decent.
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#9
(09-02-2009, 03:11 PM)bkwegoharder Wrote: also, the Core 2 Quad Q9400 doesn't really beat the Phenom II X4 945. It is priced 20 dollars more and they really trade blows and for the most part are equal. the advantage that the Phenom has is that it is on a platform that is not dying.

Yeah, my bad. I meant Q8400, which matches the Q9400 in almost every benchmark (And most certainly matches it in gaming performance, which is relevant to this forum). It's $169, same as the 945.

And whenever I talk of Core2-series CPUs, I assume them at their overclocked speeds. The Core2 series is designed to be overclocked. Intel actually releases specs to motherboad makers for running the Q8400/9400 at a perfectly stable and undamaging 3.2ghz; and won't even void warranty on the chip. If that's not a seal of approval, I don't know what is.

(A Q8400 can be OC'd to between 3.5 and 3.6ghz under what most people consider typical overclocking expectations, meaning it's stable but will likely shorten the lifespan of the chip; except of course most people upgrade anyway, long before that shortening becomes relevant).

Simply put: If you aren't overclocking your Core2 chip, you aren't getting what you paid for. Instead you're just paying for a moble-style power miser -- a chip that's meant to be stuffed inside the low-profile case of a Dell desktop, coupled with a 220w PSU and a single crap unified CPU/Case fan, and not set itself on fire in the process.
Jake Stine (Air) - Programmer - PCSX2 Dev Team
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#10
Thhat is true, the Core 2s are even competing with the phenoms with much lower clock rates so in the end, the clock for clock performance is higher and the Phenoms seem to only get 200mhz more when overclocking and that is with the wide clock advantage, so in the end the Core 2s will probably outperform the phenoms. They can also take more heat from what I hear since people are saying that the maximum temperatures for the phenoms are like 63 C which is really low compared to Intels 100C.
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