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Since becoming a member of this forum a little over a month ago, I have slowly but surely learned, and become accustomed to all of the rules, and un-spoken rules here. One of them being piracy. All of the active members here are very aware of the Administrator and Moderators strong opinion of piracy and the rules they evoke along with it.

To be honest, I find it a little too much. In this technologic age, I find it very hard to believe anyone when they say they are against piracy in every way, shape, or form. So, I started a hunt. The hunt was in regards to legality of what we do best here at PCSX2 forums.

Keep in mind, I am in no way trying to harm PCSX2's team, just trying to make a point in regards to rules that have been put down, which have been broken by active members, and team members alike.

First, I wanted to know word for word, what the law states in regards to backing up Playstation 2 games. First, I found out the bureaucrats like to refer to it as archiving, not backing up. Second, I found out that as a whole, the law states that it is NOT illegal to archive games that you have purchased. As stated here.

BUT! Yes, there is a but. There are some restrictions. In the fine print in some manuals it states that unauthorized copies, backups, or any other sort of reproduction is subject to civil and criminal penalties. This statement I just made can also be verified via the link I gave above.

So let me give you some examples :

Grand Theft Auto IV : Vice City Stories

"You agree not to" and then part C states: "© Make copies of the Software or any part thereof"

World Series of Poker 2007 Edition.

"Activision grants you the non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license to use one copy of this Program solely and exclusively for your personal use."

Midnight Club II for the PS2.

"You may not reproduce, prepare derivative works based on, distribute copies of, offer for sale, sell, transfer ownership of, rent, lease, or lend to others the Program or accompanying documentation, or any portion or component of the Program or accompanying documentation"

Final Fantasy X & Final Fantasy X-2 & Final Fantasy XII

"The product, this manual, and all other accompanying documentation, written or electronic, are protected by the United States copyright law, and international treaties. Unauthorized reproduction is subject to civil and criminal personalities.

God of War & God of War 2

"Unauthorized copying, reproduction, rental, public performance or broadcast of this game game is a violation of applicable laws. All rights to make copies of any portion of the game is retained by the copyright holder.

This list goes on and on! Really, I just wanted to make this thread not to burn any bridges, not to piss anyone off, but to just "tone" down the strict tolerance level of piracy here. Another tid bit of info I wanted to share, if you are using PCSX2, and are from the UK (a.k.a. England) and are abiding all of the rules of the forums; you are breaking one of your country's laws. PS2 Mod chips were dubbed illegal back in 2007.

So please, do not get frustrated with me for this post. Just take it as it is, and ease up a bit.

Disclaimer: I am in no way, shape, or form admitting piracy here. Nor am I hinting it. I have different opinions in regards to piracy, but still none the less, I am leaving this disclaimer in hope that I do not get warned, and this thread does not get closed.
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Err i don't get what your point is though? The quotes you have here all state that you CAN have a personal iso image of your legally purchased game and use it (but not distribute it)

Also,there are multiple ways to dump your BIOS file in unmodded PS2s,so that argument is off the chart as well.

We are so strict because we would certainly not like to be the target of Sony's lawsuits. Yes I know having less strict rules doesn't mean Sony would sue us,but it does give them an extra reason to,and I guess we are not in their buddy list. Not that PCSX2 hasn't been created with perfectly legal procedures but as we all know emulation has always been in the gray area of the law (although lately it's moving towards the 'legal way).
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The quotes I have provided do not all state that you can make a personal "ISO copy". In fact, some of them are as easily put, "Do not copy". Especially this quote :

"You agree not to" and then part C states: "© Make copies of the Software or any part thereof". And that is word for word from Grand Theft Auto : Vice City Stories manual.

The copyright law was established before technology was able to create a "archive" of a PS2 disc, let alone a Nintendo cartridge. Then that is why the also put in the Copyright law that the consume must also abide as to the Shrink Wrap License Agreements on the package.

In short, the Copyright law states that you can make backups of your products. BUT, some products specifically say on the package, or manual that it is against civil and criminal law to make unauthorized copies. But then people ask, "Well just what is an Unauthorized Copy?" The law states that in order to make an authorized reproduction of software you must hold the copyright. And in this case, I know damn well that none of us don't.

I'm not saying that this applies to all games. I wanted to make the public of these forums aware of this though. According to the T of the Copyright law, we technically have committed some sort of piracy.

Really my point is, that Sony is not gonna come in here and sue us for illegally obtaining a BIOS. The reason being, is because they know they it's not worth their time, and that we as being the general populous do not have the money to pay them if we did. Yes, their are a few stories of people getting sued by record companies or software companies for thousands, even hundred of thousands of dollars. But those corporations never receive all of that money, or anything close to it. The issue those lawsuits to try and make a point, and prevent others from doing it.

Really, all I just wanted to say is, if we really want to impose this rule, and enforce it as much as we can, and stay legal; we need to understand exactly what piracy is. And how easily it can be done. In everyone one of those quotations I have posted, they all say the same thing. Do not make copies of this game. That's what they all sum up to be.
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Well you see I'd better be safe than sorry and that's how it's going to stay. It's easy for you to say,but we are the ones who would get hit with ginormous lawsuits none of us could buy out,not you.
You don't know what Sony would do,we don't know either so we're going to be as legal as possible.

Well if making an ISO of a game can be deemed illegal for some games,I guess almost everyone has broken that law (which I'm quite sure you have misinterpreted) so since we can't do anything about that,we at least are doing what we can in all other fronts.
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(06-07-2009, 11:03 PM)Scott Wrote: "You agree not to" and then part C states: "© Make copies of the Software or any part thereof". And that is word for word from Grand Theft Auto : Vice City Stories manual.

Anyone can claim whatever they want inside the game manuals, but the concept of fair use is very important to people in the US and abroad. In the same way I can't write down "You aren't allowed to talk about [subject] ever again" on a piece of paper and be taken seriously, telling people they can't make copies for archival purposes is (in general) unenforcable.
I'll bet most CD's have a similar statement somewhere, yet not many people question the legality of ripping your own CD's for your own collection. Is it a breech of a very strict interpretation of copyright law? Probably, but using such a strict interpretation causes many of the things we do in our daily lives to be classified as 'illegal'.

Basically, Sony isn't going to come sueing you for making your own ISO's of your own games because it's very likely they would lose if anyone called their bluff and defended themselves. And the last thing they want is a judge ruling broadly in the defendant's favor, damaging Sony's position.
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Yeah, the rule of thumb when making EULAs and such is to expressly disallow everything and anything under the sun, and then whichever parts are actually legal in whichever states/timezones/planets can be applied and the bupkis can be ignored. For example in the UK it's probably unwise to take a picture of the underside of your CD and hang it on your wall, for fear of violating copyright law (that's an exaggeration, but not far off the mark). Also, for that matter, normally about 60% or more of your basic EULA on any piece of software (game or app) is intended to protect the author from lawsuits by the user -- not the other way around. People tend to forget that angle, but ultimately it's the primary reason EULAs exist in the first place. The rest of it is usually stuff already covered by law, and just pasted in as a scare tactic or "public service announcement" of sorts.

Anyways, our stance on piracy is simply that we do not support it and we don't want people talking about it here, with regard to the US copyright laws of copying which are outside fair use; which is copy + redistribution or obtaining copies from external sources regardless of ownership status (the second part is the one most people find fault with, so much so that they feel an uncontrollable urge to display their discontent by flipping their finger at it in public places). There's a lot of forums the world over, and we're not going to judge folks here for whatever they do or say on any of those.
Jake Stine (Air) - Programmer - PCSX2 Dev Team
I too think that remaining on the safe side is better. I wouldn't wanna see the PCSX2 project sink into oblivion because some crazy ass zealot feels like banning emulation. Yes, I know it wouldn't be worth it, but look at what Jack Thompson did. He lost in the end but the PCSX2 team isn't Rockstar Games.

Anyway, I'm French, so it's legal for me to backup stuff for archiving purposes.
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little late but.... i think they make them "laws,rules" but don't really follow them to the T.......I think they would focus the big time distributors more than lets say a 15 year old whiz kid sitting at his pc making copies.
i mean whens the last time you've heard in the news FBI or what ever organization busting some joe somebody at his house cause he wanted to back up tom clancy's advanced war fighter for safe keeping?.....
The way I see it, things are as they should be in regards to the rules here. As OP says about the fact that Sony won't come and sue the PCSX2 team because of a few people openly using illegal copies of BIOS and games, well that may be true but after time it would turn into a forum where people ask and help each other find illegal copies of games and BIOS, and after it coming to that, obviously Sony would want to stop a single place where hundreds and thousands of people work together to break the law.
Anyway, even if not to protect themselves from being sued, the rules will always encourage people to support Sony and the developers of the games and after all, without those, this project wouldn't exist.
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I agree. I mean the attitude that "sony won't bother if a few people get a bios off the internet" is kind of sugar coating the problem. You have to remember PCSX2 has over 6 million users worldwide, and its more than likely that quite a few of them are not using the emulator legitimately (which i do not condone, infact it upsets me that we are being abused).

But lets take the BIOS situation.

For a BIOS file, you require 1 PS2, this goes at retail for, lets say, $100 (price on EB Games). Now 1 person has downloaded his BIOS file, sony has missed out on that $100, no big deal right? But what about the other 5.9 million people? Admittedly not everybody will be pirating it, lets say, just 20% of them are, that's 1,200,000 people.

Lets do some maths

1,200,000 people X $100 = $120,000,000

Yep, thats One Hundred and Twenty Million Dollars which Sony has made a loss on sales. That on the other hand, is a big deal, and it would be brought about simply because we distributed a free emulator.

NOW do you see why Sony may have issues with us?
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