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Please help prevent Linux Hell, include libraries in package
#1
Why is it always a massive struggle to get proper support for Linux, and why is it that developers never want to include libraries and instead choose to make every Linux user's life hell?

Include all the dependencies in the downloadable package, please. If you're worried about bandwidth, use torrents. You can build things into it to check for native/existing versions of libraries if you really want to, but if not found it needs to use the included ones.

Also, Zero Install is a nice system that provides auto-updates and icon/launcher management like any other package manager, except it is cross-distro (and cross-platform) which makes it much better than all other package managers. Consider using it, please.

Asking a Linux user to create a chroot jail and go through a million steps just to install an application is not helping the cause.

Comments please!
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#2
its a never ending cycle

people dont develop for linux, people dont use linux (basic users i mean), people dont really develop an easy way to develop for linux

admittedly im making many generalisations, i have a mac, an ubuntu "server" and a win7 machine running next to eachother at my desk....

-- also without looking at 0install, your generalisation of because its cross platform its better is extremely ignorant... by my experience doing many things means its not as good at each individual aspect, i wouldnt ask PC users to suffer with a substandard piece of software just to give linux users a chance, thats just kicking the can further down the street

(im no expert, just a experienced computerer making generalisations)
[Main Computer] - CPU: I7 950 @ 3.2Ghz | GPU: Twin Nvidea GTS 450's SLI'd | RAM: 8GB DDR3 - 1600MHz | OS: Windows 7 Ultimate x64 | EMU: PCSX2 v1.0 | GS: GSdx32-SSE4 | SPU2: SPU2-X | PAD LilyPad | CDVD ****
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#3
All of this sound like a good idea...
When do you plan to provide such a system ?
Can we expect any release date ?
CPU : I7 2600K Oc'ed @ 4.2Ghz
Mobo : Intel P67 southbridge
GPU : NVIDIA Geforce GTX 750 Ti
RAM : 6 Go
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#4
(08-08-2012, 01:56 AM)soratidus999 Wrote: its a never ending cycle

people dont develop for linux, people dont use linux (basic users i mean), people dont really develop an easy way to develop for linux

admittedly im making many generalisations, i have a mac, an ubuntu "server" and a win7 machine running next to eachother at my desk....

-- also without looking at 0install, your generalisation of because its cross platform its better is extremely ignorant... by my experience doing many things means its not as good at each individual aspect, i wouldnt ask PC users to suffer with a substandard piece of software just to give linux users a chance, thats just kicking the can further down the street

(im no expert, just a experienced computerer making generalisations)

That's why I'm asking these questions, because I don't understand why devs aren't interested in cross-distro solutions.

As for me saying ZI is better than existing managers, I'm simply saying Linux users being able to install programs directly from developers regardless of their distro is a form of freedom and is an extremely important feature, in my opinion one of the most important ones. So far, ZI is the only easy, real solution I have seen. If you know of a better one, chime in! Software access is the difference between freedom and being inprisoned, because the entire point of a computer is to use programs. Thus, an OS that makes that difficult isn't a OS that puts freedom first. I couldn't even get PCSX2 running on Linux after trying for a while, and it makes me feel like switching over to my Windows install just for the ease of installation, and I'm using the most mainstream Linux distro there is, Ubuntu 12.04. Ease of use is something devs care about for the Windows version, so they should care about it with Linux versions as well. If they try to claim it's because of a lack of standards, they need to switch to something that is standardized, or include the libraries that are constantly changing and breaking things inside the download package, or they need to find a system of rolling out software so users can always get the parts they need, like Zero Install.

Quite simply, Linux needs to be easy to use, so the Linux version being advertised for PCSX2 as being awesome and running well etc isn't helping to give Linux a good image when the normal user has no chance with the Linux version. I'm simply offering a possible solution and asking why not.

(08-08-2012, 03:19 AM)jesalvein Wrote: All of this sound like a good idea...
When do you plan to provide such a system ?
Can we expect any release date ?

That's not the point of this thread. I'm asking the devs here why this isn't being done, why they are going half of the way towards Linux releases and not all the way. Why don't you release a ZI version? I can be snarky too.

I couldn't even get the thing compiled and running anyway because of stupid differing package names and other retarded problems that I wouldn't wish on anyone. So, I'm far from being able to package a version with included libraries or creating ZI packages for the required library versions and having them each in separate packages all dependant on one another.


Here's Windows and Mac: Download, install, run.

Here's Linux: Get redirected to confusing FAQ page, try to read through and understand FAQ page, download and attempt to run recommended package, try to figure out library package names to install all the missing dependancies, bang head against desk and wish you weren't running Linux, realize that Linux and freedom is important enough to try to improve things, come to forums to ask why it's so difficult and why devs don't release an easier package.

Gee, I wonder why it's not the year of the Linux desktop yet??? HuhHuhHuh


P.S. The reason distros aren't interested in cross-distro solutions is because they each want their own OS X with their own Apple Stores (Ubuntu Software Center), each locked into their own walled garden. Go Linux freedom!
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#5
I can understand Linux can be frustrating. I am a Linux user hobbyist, not a programmer or anything awesome like that, but I have learned my way around a little bit using Ubuntu because of widespead support and availability, albeit with some bumpy roads. I started with 64bit 3 years ago but I had trouble at that time with open source flash player (Adobe at that time did not make 64bit flash player). I therefore went back to 32bit. Because I don't have latest and greatest system I didn't bother to go back to 64bit. Three years ago you had to make a chroot to run PCSX2 64bit (a nightmare) until someone realized you just needed specific ia32 libraries of dependencies and graphics driver. This was so you could possibly run games using a plugin that made all my games have poor FPS and funky graphical errors (not a ZeroGS fan). Not good. Fast forward 3 years. Now things are easier due to multiarch and the PPA. Add a high quality plugin such as GSDX to Linux and the Linux version became just plain awesome. Just type sudo apt-get install pcsx2-unstable:i386 after adding PPA and your only job is to find your 32bit driver for your graphics card. Easy work nowadays!

I honestly don't see the need to complain. Both PCSX2 and Linux distro programs are free, and therefore the makers of the program can do whatever they want. If you know how to add pnach cheats then it's like having a free Codebreaker. Windows still has > 95% market share (many people never even heard of Linux) so nobody is going out of there way to develop point-and-click type technology for Linux (Ubuntu is closest to that though). I have never had a problem getting Linux version to run natively, but if it truly frustrates you that bad, just install Wine 1.4 and the 0.9.8 standard Windows version and run it in Wine. Go into GSDX plugin and change DirectX mode to SDL, because even if you use Winetricks to install DirectX GSDX still won't work. Period. At least you can have a decent version of PCSX2 running with minimal fuss, and keep your Linux running.

Just my 0.02 from an occasional posting Linux and Virtualbox/Windows user.
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#6
Well the answer to all that is simple: The whole PCSX2 team is using and developing for WINDOWS ONLY, while 1 member (gregory) is left with all the Linux stuff.

Clear enough?
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#7
Zero install is a bit like that:

[Image: standards.png]

Anyway, on Ubuntu, you don't need any chroot, you can directly install a ppa (I'm currently updating the ppa stable version). Future version of PCSX2 might be directly integrated into Ubuntu. However, you're rigth docs needs some serious updates.

Quote:P.S. The reason distros aren't interested in cross-distro solutions is because they each want their own OS X with their own Apple Stores (Ubuntu Software Center), each locked into their own walled garden. Go Linux freedom!
Distro think they're package management are the best so why uses an others solutions Wink
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#8
Except ZI isn't "just another package manager" because it is one of the very few that is cross-distro and can be used by all users. So, it's not like a 15th standard at all. Supplying an Ubuntu PPA is, well, great for Ubuntu users I guess (I say I guess because I didn't have success with it, but I'm running 64-bit, even though I put ":386" on the end), but it doesn't help anyone else. Kudos for whoever put effort into offering at least that much, but it would have been more helpful to do something cross-platform for Arch users, Suse users, Fedora users, Debian users, Slackware, Gentoo, and everyone else.

I'm interested in Linux as a whole, not just Ubuntu. Every dev should be interested in having an easy, cross-distro solution so as many Linux users can easily run it as possible.

If I get the time, if I can get all the dependencies into one place and get a functional program up and going, I'll certainly share with others via a straight compressed binary package or ZI feed to allow for auto-update and launcher goodness. Another option is to release autocompilation ZI feeds, as ZI can do that as well, similar to Portage.

Willl keep the list updated if I'm successful, although it would sure be nice if someone who already had success doing so would share it with others.
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#9
Directly contact Gregory, then.
He's most probably the one who could get interest in this...
CPU : I7 2600K Oc'ed @ 4.2Ghz
Mobo : Intel P67 southbridge
GPU : NVIDIA Geforce GTX 750 Ti
RAM : 6 Go
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