Dolphin limit

[Dante3hs]

Think of it like this... its better to optomise for the hardware of tomorrow than the hardware of the past.

You are doing alot to try and get pcsx2 running smooth and fast on slower machines, which is great. But its better to make changes that will give better stability before better speed since technology is constantly advancing. Pcs will continue to get stronger and eventually emulation speed wont be an issue.

The emulator works fine as it is speedwise. Sure some optimisations can still be done to fix some issues with certain games, but as a whole its fine. It would be counter productive to change things the way you are suggesting since then all the current work on stability would be gone.

[nosisab Ken Keleh]

Continuing the reasoning from the previous post:

Maybe your idea is making PCSX2 working like PC games do, where the events are synced by real time and not the FPS (for example, a game pace is kept despite the FPS is 30 or 60). That would be sensible, the only problem is PC games themselves are designed to be so, that's not what happens in PS2, the games are designed to sync based on the steady and granted by hardware 60Hz (NTSC) which is the PS2 refresh rate. Attempts were done to make understandable that is that "base", that "refresh rate" that PCSX2 tries to generate to be PCSX2 basis.

At PS2, that refresh rate is so much related with it's actual FPS as FPS in PC is related to the monitor refresh rate. Whatever you do on PC, don't try changing it's refresh rate, the results would be BAD, at best hypothesis your monitor would shutdown with a message like "signal out of range", at worst scenery not only the image would become distorted as the very "frame", the screen itself becomes distorted... worse than this only if you smash it's physical frame.

PCSX2 can't generate actual refresh rate, so the best it can do is "emulate" it as it's base FPS. There is a "positive point" in this that is for being FPS on the emulator, changes in it are not so drastic for the actual PC and the monitor.

The negative point is, because that PS2 refresh rate being already emulated as FPS at PCSX2 it has not as to isolate the "actual PS2 FPS" from it, So that PS2 actual FPS must translate as actual image changing pace being impressed frame by frame in that base FPS emulating the actual PS2 output...

Then comes... "wait, why not forgetting that RR base at all and dealing directly and only with the actual PS2 FPS?"

Yes, that's what I can see on your proposal, I may be wrong but it is how I understood it. It would not be bad idea at all if was feasible. The best of two worlds... PS2 games able to run so independently on FPS as PC games do, you could have the game running at 35FPS or 70FPS and they "feel" the same, very like PC...

The problem is only that games for PS2 aren't synced by real time, they, in their majority uses that basis to sync their internals and all, really all will be taken at 60Hz RR (on PS2) before can be output to TV.

Here comes the problem's explanation attempt, it's not how PS2 and PS2 games are designed... the games need that base steady and stable "while they play", what translates to "while they are emulated" on PCSX2. It's not the same thing to try emulating it while the base is altered and afterward increase the base to it's nominal values once again. Of course there is "performance gain" because the actual emulation is being done at half what it should, just that performance alone is not enough, quality and precision are needed also. What good is having the game running at 60 FPS is everything else is wrong, sound, events, pacing...?

The answer is not simple I know... to some that compromise may be acceptable, I leave the answer to each one judgment. The objective point in here is: the whole thing is moot for average and above machines.

[billyash]

What is being missed is: PCSX2 works as it is. Of course there are those games which circumvent the optimizations or have their own post processing which the emulator does not "translate" well yet and come out as glitches or performance loss, but this is totally different subject and solutions involve increasing accuracy probably hurting yet more the nowadays performance.

PS2 games were designed to run on PS2, and each game developer was free to implement whatever they envisioned to make their own games perform better on PS2 and so each game is different on how to achieve this. The only thing granting they work as expected is PS2 tight control on events sync and timings. Removing this common factor is not sensible line of thought.

So, Your proposal to change what is working (at least for fast enough machines) to implement something involving breaking what makes it to work is getting too far already.

You are treating games and configurations at case basis, that's OK, that particular game works well with that particular setup on your machine... that's good, is the way to go. Just it is not the same for everybody else, surely is not good to those able to run the games with a configuration they don't need to change for each game to compensate the loss of sync.

Billy, try to understand this once and for all, PCSX2 works fine for reasonably fast machines of today, changes in the way it works which involves losing control is not the way to go.

In the analogy at the PM I told you your proposal is the same as removing the security mechanisms of a car to reduce it's load, all but the most basic "all or nothing" brake and replacing the conscious and responsible driver by a psycho without notion of limits who go deep on the throttle all the time using the bumpers to keep the car on the track.

That may work while the car is weak and could not go fast anyway and already struggle to keep at speed limits on the ascends and the plain... but the first descending this will not be good for this puny car and it's driver (if is a driver at all)... worse... much worse... it is already a "suicide" if the car is a powerful sport machine.

those idea is optional just like other hack on GUI,
When we need it just thick it,when we don't need it just unthick it.
For strong machine if don't need just unthick it.
So there nothing to be change in PCSX2

[Dante3hs]

What your proposing is a little more complex than the hacks already in the emulator. This would alter the way the emulator works entirely as opposed to modifying a few parameters for example.

[billyash]

Think of it like this... its better to optomise for the hardware of tomorrow than the hardware of the past.

You are doing alot to try and get pcsx2 running smooth and fast on slower machines, which is great. But its better to make changes that will give better stability before better speed since technology is constantly advancing. Pcs will continue to get stronger and eventually emulation speed wont be an issue.

The emulator works fine as it is speedwise. Sure some optimisations can still be done to fix some issues with certain games, but as a whole its fine. It would be counter productive to change things the way you are suggesting since then all the current work on stability would be gone.

This idea for temporary. If hardware tomorow can achieve pcsx2 speed, we can remove it like other hack too that removed from GUI and PCSX2

---

Continuing the reasoning from the previous post:

Maybe your idea is making PCSX2 working like PC games do, where the events are synced by real time and not the FPS (for example, a game pace is kept despite the FPS is 30 or 60). That would be sensible, the only problem is PC games themselves are designed to be so, that's not what happens in PS2, the games are designed to sync based on the steady and granted by hardware 60Hz (NTSC) which is the PS2 refresh rate. Attempts were done to make understandable that is that "base", that "refresh rate" that PCSX2 tries to generate to be PCSX2 basis.

At PS2, that refresh rate is so much related with it's actual FPS as FPS in PC is related to the monitor refresh rate. Whatever you do on PC, don't try changing it's refresh rate, the results would be BAD, at best hypothesis your monitor would shutdown with a message like "signal out of range", at worst scenery not only the image would become distorted as the very "frame", the screen itself becomes distorted... worse than this only if you smash it's physical frame.

PCSX2 can't generate actual refresh rate, so the best it can do is "emulate" it as it's base FPS. There is a "positive point" in this that is for being FPS on the emulator, changes in it are not so drastic for the actual PC and the monitor.

The negative point is, because that PS2 refresh rate being already emulated as FPS at PCSX2 it has not as to isolate the "actual PS2 FPS" from it, So that PS2 actual FPS must translate as actual image changing pace being impressed frame by frame in that base FPS emulating the actual PS2 output...

Then comes... "wait, why not forgetting that RR base at all and dealing directly and only with the actual PS2 FPS?"

Yes, that's what I can see on your proposal, I may be wrong but it is how I understood it. It would not be bad idea at all if was feasible. The best of two worlds... PS2 games able to run so independently on FPS as PC games do, you could have the game running at 35FPS or 70FPS and they "feel" the same, very like PC...

The problem is only that games for PS2 aren't synced by real time, they, in their majority uses that basis to sync their internals and all, really all will be taken at 60Hz RR (on PS2) before can be output to TV.

Here comes the problem, it's not how PS2 and PS2 games are designed... the games need that base steady and stable "while they play", what translates to "while they are emulated" on PCSX2. It's not the same thing to try emulating it while the base is altered and afterward increase the base to it's nominal values once again. Of course there is "performance gain" because the actual emulation is being done at half what it should, just that performance alone is not enough, quality and precision are needed also. What good is having the game running at 60 FPS is everything else is wrong, sound, events, pacing...?

The answer is not simple I know... to some that compromise may be acceptable, I leave the answer to each one judgment. The objective point in here is: the whole thing is moot for average and above machines.

do we agree not talk about refreshrate(Hz)

[billyash]

What your proposing is a little more complex than the hacks already in the emulator. This would alter the way the emulator works entirely as opposed to modifying a few parameters for example.

really? What PCSX2 should do only read FPS then followed by framerate..
And is other hack modify few parameter? ( ' ',)?

[nosisab Ken Keleh]

really? What PCSX2 should do only read FPS then followed by framerate..
And is other hack modify few parameter? ( ' ',)?

Billy, the ability to change those NTSC and PAL values were exposed once at the GUI, their boxes are still there, they are grayed out now. Guess why?

Yourself noted as "each" game needs special compensation in the attempt to get things working, yourself proposed so unrealistic attempts on sound plugin config like latency as low and bellow 3ms... that is something hard to accomplish even with professional sound equipment and ASIO drivers... 30ms length buffers is already "dangerous" even for some PC applications... but we are talking about emulation here, below 50ms is almost impossible to keep other than on very powerful machines with SSD drivers and such.

Can't you see the problem and why that setup (once existent) was removed from the GUI? even with normal speedhacks there is already a lot of reports and complaints about issues, with that hack which can't even be given support except case by case... which depend on particular machines and most of times can't even be reproduced in different machines... the amount of problems increases many folds, making support almost impossible and deeply harming PCSX2 credibility.

Still, the parameter was grayed out on the GUI for that reason but not removed, you can still access those parameters directly by the ini file... so it's there, for the adventuring enough to try it. Just that must not be expected support in this case, be aware anyone going to try it. It may work for you but there is no warranty and not much hope for general support, you still can communicate among yourselves sharing similar problems and similar and particular machines.

It's not that most people here will be unwilling to help, repeating, it is the problem is not reproducible in all machines (actually the problem does not exist at all for average and above machines) and when is possible the results are too much different to be helpful.

PS: I'm not against your attempts, Billy, least yet against you. At one thread the machine was too weak to hopefully run games with the common speedhacks, so I pointed him to seek for you and your experiences so he could try it and share the experience so a knowledge base is constructed. This hack must be tested before being stated as working not only for particular games as in different parts of a same game... and for specific machine power range.

[billyash]

Billy, the ability to change those NTSC and PAL values were exposed once at the GUI, their boxes are still there, they are grayed out now. Guess why?

Yourself noted as "each" game needs special compensation in the attempt to get things working, yourself proposed so unrealistic attempts on sound plugin config like latency as low and bellow 3ms... that is something hard to accomplish even with professional sound equipment and ASIO drivers... 30ms length buffers is already "dangerous" even for some PC applications... but we are talking about emulation here, below 50ms is almost impossible to keep other than on very powerful machines with SSD drivers and such.

Can't you see the problem and why that setup (once existent) was removed from the GUI? even with normal speedhacks there is already a lot of reports and complaints about issues, with that hack which can't even be given support except case by case... which depend on particular machines and most of times can't even be reproduced in different machines... the amount of problems increases many folds, making support almost impossible and deeply harming PCSX2 credibility.

Still, the parameter was grayed out on the GUI for that reason but not removed, you can still access those parameters directly by the ini file... so it's there, for the adventuring enough to try it. Just that must not be expected support in this case, be aware anyone going to try it. It may work for you but there is no warranty and not much hope for general support, you still can communicate among yourselves sharing similar problems and similar and particular machines.

It's not that most people here will be unwilling to help, repeating, it is the problem is not reproducible in all machines (actually the problem does not exist at all for average and above machines) and when is possible the results are too much different to be helpful.

yes, i know it greyed. And change latency was wrong.
But make it auto won't harm because if your pc achieve fullspeed framerate won't decreased at all ,right?
Beside, if make auto with "thick box" like other hack it won't harming anything. when we don't need it just unthick it. that's it,what do you think?.

[nosisab Ken Keleh]

yes, i know it greyed. And change latency was wrong.
But make it auto won't harm because if your pc achieve fullspeed framerate won't decreased at all ,right?
Beside, if make auto with "thick box" like other hack it won't harming anything. when we don't need it just unthick it. that's it,what do you think?.

well, let's let a dev yet more adventuring trying it and saying what was gotten. I can't even imagine what could come from it... well, that image of a psycho driver and car's came to mind once again

[billyash]

well, let's let a dev yet more adventuring trying it and saying what was gotten. I can't even imagine what could come from it... well, that image of a psycho driver and car's came to mind once again

i know, it really agressive. That hack valid for some games.
But im doubt "fps limit" and "framerate hack" would be granted.
Imagine if we could combine "framerate hack" and "auto frameskip" there will nasty speed boost.
Why i'm saying auto frame skip?
Because if framerate decreased
Of course number frame to be skipped is decreased too.
You know previous frameskip was great. but i know what caused bad graphic was too many number frames to be skipped.