Final Fantasy X NTSC running real-time (59.94 FPS) on latest beta using Pentium 4 HT

[Dangerousd777]

Also true, but crashes are rare as it is with all the speedhacks enabled.

I hear Ace Combat 4 doesn't run very well so far, I'd probably get like 40 FPS at best if I don't at least get inaccurate textures.

The 'main' games of Project 64 were Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark, Zeldacarina of Time, Super Mario 64, Mario Kart and Banjo Kazooie, the development was basically centered around these games to optimize all others that use similar rendering techniques and execution code. The work was especially well done but N64 emulation has been going on since the late 1990s, while PCSX2 has only been around since maybe late 2001, definitely 2002.

Goldeneye 007 is a "hard to emulate" game for the N64, it's literally quarter up to a third at best as hardware intensive as FFX running on PCSX2, and the N64 only had a 93 mhz processor and by-modern-standards pretty weak graphic capabilities (ever heard of the 'Reality Drawing Processor'? Well everything drawn is almost anything but, but at least it beats PlayStation, you just don't see too many video cutscenes on those old N64 cartridges)

The game was particularly pretty 'raw' code, with the programming being complex that is why the execution is difficult, especially if you use the interpreter then the framerate is only 12 FPS, whereas FFX gets 3-4 FPS with all interpreters.

The graphics weren't anything special, just 30 FPS usually, it was the CPU aspect that made the N64 lag quite a bit on Goldeneye 007, especially in wide spaces like in the Dam or if you were in plumes of smoke, but if you overclock the N64 you can overcome that, whereas on PC if your getting 60 FPS you still feel like your only getting 24 in some areas, that N64 had an unfair advantage unless you've got a Core 2 Duo and you remove the framerate limiter.

It was a great game, addicting multiplayer, it just sucks that Final Fantasy X doesn't have a PC port, or you could play the game with a Pentium III, a 16-32 MB video card and like 128-256 MB of RAM. If Goldeneye 007 had a PC port you could get by with a Pentium II, 2-4 MB graphics card and 4-8 MB of RAM (separate from whatever is needed for the operating system)

I assure you those estimations are fairly accurate from everything I've seen, only the slim PS2 models like the one I have include a full 512 MB of RAM instead of only 256. I don't know how that might have helped performance in games like MGS2 and 3 or Gran Turismo 4, but maybe it did something if the games 'cached' all their textures and what-not.

It's not like you could just interpret or recompile the game code (from or to Binary or Assembly, from even it's native PS2 coding) and 'optimize' it for x86 (This makes me wonder how they port games from different systems... perhaps they save themselves all the coding by just recompiling into different code).

The problem is you need all of the games resources, and that's really only something Square could have dealt with at time of development, unless someone has time enough on their hands to go for some sort of extreme overhaul.

Note: in terms of code, there are few limits... besides the CPU cycles required to execute the instructions, but less instructions and more concrete instructions (more efficient sets via optimization) could defeat the limitations of the CPU-intensive portions.

2.6 ghz Athlon dual cores (4 ghz P4 w/ HT) or 1.2 Ghz Core 2 Duo is all that's really required to run FFX real-time consistently, and with the slowest Core 2 Duo you could buy, you have 50% more clockspeed on each core than you need. With any Core 2 Duo MGS3 should be playable. I have no idea about Tekken 5 and I can't really make guarantees for any games other than those I've tested, so I'll have to spend more time trying these out. The first thing I will buy for sure is a better CPU, just for all of this really.

By the way I had to fiddle with my clamp, suspend and resume to get past the black screen after you go to Kilika Island and Yuna does her sending or whatever.



I've been up since last night so pic related (he fell asleep... not really but I missed a dialog and he blinked lol)

[Viperus]

A PC port of this game would get 500-600+ FPS on my CPU.

No you wouldnt lol. I dont know the english term, but in programing the speed doesnt just depend on the cpu , but the program itself....err....look

lets say we have a code that looks like this

for(x=1;x<n;x++){do_something_very_simple;}

this means it will do simple commands n times, depending on the number n. This program will be 10x faster on a CPU that is 10x stronger, which makes sense.

However if we have code that looks like this

for(x=1;x<n;x++){
for(y=1;y<n;y++){
do_something_very_simple;
}
}

The program will do n*n simple commands, depending on the number n
This program will be 10x faster on a 100x stronger CPU. Even a 1000x stronger CPU will do this task only 32x faster, not 1000x faster. And thats why you wont get a million fps like you imagined (this is the reason why optimization is important, and some old games are still unplayable on high res even with 10x stronger PCs)

So tehnically speaking, C2D are more then 4x stronger then P4, but due to program complexity, the programs run 4x faster.

[RenShijo-Kun]

yeah u can play with C2D 1.2Ghz on FFX and suffer the GOD speed crawl..
add with the onboard GPU especially intel one's and u will get 1 fps during Demi spell or Shiva summons..

u can't just assume u can run this game at blah blah fps..
pc game are clocked differently..
it's not the same as emulating it as emulating the game is much harder to do with all the work going around the background as u play..(the codes and cycle stuff)

Note : Try playing Rogue Galaxy and watch the magic going..

[Dangerousd777]

yeah u can play with C2D 1.2Ghz on FFX and suffer the GOD speed crawl..
add with the onboard GPU especially intel one's and u will get 1 fps during Demi spell or Shiva summons..

u can't just assume u can run this game at blah blah fps..
pc game are clocked differently..
it's not the same as emulating it as emulating the game is much harder to do with all the work going around the background as u play..(the codes and cycle stuff)

Note : Try playing Rogue Galaxy and watch the magic going..

Well yeah PC games are coded differently and optimized for x86 and/or x64 architecture. The PS2 games were optimized specifically for the emotion engine, for the hardware they would be running on.. that's one reason why they're not quite as PC compatible (PS2 virtual-machine wise) as we had hoped because the development team never intended on having their games emulated on a PC.

But yeah, with that said, a PC port of FFX should still run above 60 FPS because running only the program code is much, much simpler than having to emulate the entire environment running the program to begin with.

A 1.2 ghz C2D would be equivalent (but of course not exactly equal) to a 4.4-4.8 ghz P4, but the only problem is it would be only about 50 FPS at the best, you would need at least an extra 400 mhz. As far as playability is concerned that's a minimum for playability because FFX doesn't have you run around and shoot zombies or anything.

Since 1.8 ghz dual cores are cheap and overclocking up to around 2.3-2.4 ghz makes them a somewhat appealing option, then they are formidable against FFX, FFXII and especially MGS3 if you exceed the 2 ghz mark.

PCSX2 is still gradually improving. If things moved just 30% faster I could get real-time at stock with the speedhacks, otherwise I get like 15-20 FPS.

There will have to be optimizations in how the PS2 Virtual Machine is emulated to create greater gains in framerate and execution speed.

The easiest route would just be to get a faster CPU, even if the code wasn't very optimized for scaling upwards in CPU efficiency then you would still be better off.

But yeah, at 4 ghz I get 60 FPS *most of the time* and at 4.25 *almost all of the time*, so anybody with a 3 ghz or greater Core 2 Duo could do all of this work with just one core.

I lose about 6 or 7 frames if I enable VU0 as an interpreter. I'm not really sure what it does but it seems to change the speed of the game some during spells, they seem to 'work better' with interpreter, it's just I don't have enough CPU to run both an interpreter and a compiler. You could try it and see if it helps out at all with the Demi spell.

[nosisab Ken Keleh]

To make things a bit more interesting, unlike consoles tied with TV standards a PC game may run at 25FPS or 180FPS without that reflecting as slowdown or or the contrary, because the movements (events, actually) are synchronized with the real time instead tied with determined position at each frame (higher FPS is useful in PC, mainly in RTS type games because of responsiveness and some others factors, not the movement flow).

[Dangerousd777]

To make things a bit more interesting, unlike consoles tied with TV standards a PC game may run at 25FPS or 180FPS without that reflecting as slowdown or or the contrary, because the movements (events, actually) are synchronized with the real time instead tied with determined position at each frame (higher FPS is useful in PC, mainly in RTS type games because of responsiveness and some others factors, not the movement flow).

True, console games run within their own specific 'time-frame', rather than things being based on the 'frame-times' (like where each frame is rendered in time).

That's why when Goldeneye 007 started lagging on the N64, it looked like it was skipping frames, because it was rendering on a time-based schedule, not a frame-based, and that is why it would skip frames -- because it always had to synchronize with actual time instead of trying to complete all the frames in a linear fashion.

Because in PC games you'll notice when you get slowdown the game literally slows down and it doesn't really skip frames so much since PC games are not quite as real-time based but rather focus on executing as well as possible rather than consoles which try to execute as fluid as possible.

Also, the older version of PCSX2 (0.9.6.) is really slow with FFX, I have to force VUskip to get it to run full speed, but some parts are really fast like the beta and others are pretty slow, while some remain full speed... it is strange though.

That intro to the game is always the slowest part for some reason...

Really it takes a 5.8-6.4 ghz Pentium 4 to run this at a playable speed, and the highest speed ever reached on a P4 (Cedar Mill) was exactly 8.00 Ghz. Let's see your fancy Core 2 try that. ;D

[nosisab Ken Keleh]

Its like a body is programed to move from the point A to point B in 6 seconds in the PC, it will move all the way in that time does not matter how many frames are shown in the while. Now it's not that simple of course, this movement may cost a big deal in processing power (lets think it depends on a complex physical function), so the CPU may have not enough power to output the values in due time, mainly if it is overloaded with something else. So it will lag perceptibly and can indeed slowdown, but not because the FPS rate.

The actual speed is another factor, a high speed body moves in 'jumps' depending on the output. Although 23+FPS are considered enough to fool the human eye to see the movement as continuous the actual moving perception may be choppy (or stutter) if the output is slow. So the frameskiping, although not technically correct, gives the correct interpretation of the body seeming to make sudden jumps instead flowing naturally (This may happen even in high FPS).

Finally the FPS tends to vary depending on the demand, so it's an interactive process and normally less FPS will be tied with the system overload indeed.

PS: The above may help to understand the lag commonly associated with the VU cycle stealing, although the FPS is indeed increased, the events output rate (movement) does not follows it. The choppy and truncated sound commonly associated with the EE cyclerate is a good example of the second case there.

[Dangerousd777]

Makes plenty of sense. If it's processing power that's being taxed, the slowdown is 'real', not just perceptual.

I'm using SPU-X2 with Async Mix and without the framelimiter I get a much smoother feeling 67-80 FPS, and even when the characters finish talking the voice over stops so the sound doesn't happen to get out of sync.

[nosisab Ken Keleh]

You're right, it's the reason some games benefits on the speed hacks without greater issues while some others may break badly with just a small one.

In the end, until the emulator is optimized the max for almost all games and mainly when the available hardware will be powerful enough to run it with certain easy, tweaking each game will be an art.

Sadly there is no such thing as an universal configuration for every machine. Unlike consoles, PCs are too much varied to allow a perfect universal optimization, that happens even developing native PC games, let alone emulators... the best we can hope is a reasonable configuration that run reasonably in most, at least for now.

[Dangerousd777]

You're right, it's the reason some games benefits on the speed hacks without greater issues while some others may break badly with just a small one.

In the end, until the emulator is optimized the max for almost all games and mainly when the available hardware will be powerful enough to run it with certain easy, tweaking each game will be an art.

Sadly there is no such thing as an universal configuration for every machine. Unlike consoles, PCs are too much varied to allow a perfect universal optimization, that happens even developing native PC games, let alone emulators... the best we can hope is a reasonable configuration that run reasonably in most, at least for now.

That is what I love about the GUI of the latest PCSX2, it's easy to find and change options so you can figure out what is working and what isn't immediately. If I reduce EE cycle rate 50%, I get double the framerate, but I also get more crashes, with maximum VU cycle stealing and EE cycle rate normal, I could get 48-66 FPS and barely notice the dips in FPS while maintaining stability.

How does reducing the EE cycle rate change anything though? Aren't you basically just doubling the FPS because your giving more 'time' or just displaying double the FPS because of the half-clockspeed factor, or maybe... nah, I'm not really sure how that has a drastic effect on games that don't fully utilize the core of the PS2.

And to complicate it further, all these tweaks will work differently with every game, and even small differences in hardware could make for variables.

But what I notice is INTC spin detection doesn't do anything to FFX really, Wait loop detection makes for a staggering 10% in framerate, EE cyclerate won't do much when reduced -33% but -50% makes for faster-than-realtime gameplay.

VU cycle stealing is so important in FFX, sometimes you can get by with moderate if the game was already slow but I need maximum to keep the game fluid and I save states often just in case I crash.

You can also hack any of these games with Cheat Engine, you just need to search for the 4 byte values or all byte values for simple money/health changing cheats, it takes a lot of CPU to search through the memory so you should suspend PCSX2.

But there is a lot more you could do if you knew what you were doing.