PCSX2 development plan,thoughts,contributions

[Blyss Sarania]

First of all, thank you for a constructive and honest post JMC.

Okay. I'm gonna share a little story, since it seems necessary at this point. Personally myself I've never installed the AVG toolbar. Why? Simply because I don't like toolbars, and yes it does serve ads. However, my mom accidentally installed this on her computer when she was updating AVG the virus scanner. I wanna talk a little about my experiences with it.

First of all, I can confirm some of what JMC said. It does inject ads into the browser, and it does do it past adblock. Personally I didn't have to manually uninstall the toolbar, but rather it did install through Add/Remove programs. However, I did have to manually disable it in Chrome and FF. I did not have to use any virus scanners to remove anything, although I was suspicious enough that I removed AVG itself and swapped out for Kasperksy. Kaspersky didn't pick up anything further suspicious. So to summarize:

Yes, it's more of a pain to remove than a normal program given that you have to uninstall the browser extensions and reset your home page manually.
Yes, it serves ads. This is it's purpose.
No, I don't think it is a virus. No, I don't think it is malicious. Is it spyware? Well that depends on your definition. Is tracking your browsing habits to serve relevant ads spyware? Many will say yes here. However, if you do, know this - Google Chrome does the same. In fact Google the search engine does the same.

Lastly, I think it's pretty apparent what's going on here:

[Image: avg.png]

It says exactly what it's gonna do. It says it will install the toolbar and change your homepage and default search providers. It says it will do this for FF, Chrome and IE.

Ultimately this is why it's not a problem for me. It's not sneaky, it's not forced. Would I personally install the toolbar on my machine? No. As I said above, I don't like toolbars and I don't need help making my Internet more secure (and have more ads). I would just click it off.

And before anyone goes saying I am taking this stance because I am a mod on these forums - I have used many other software that included bundled things like this. As long as it wasn't forced on me or snuck in, I don't have a problem.

Next, people are gonna say "Well, hapless users are going to accidentally install it." Well, maybe they will. That's an honest concern with the program. I am not sure what to say here, except that we are not purposefully trying to "infect" hapless users like some people have said. Every action has unintended consequences. It's very unfortunate.

The one thing I will say, is in all honesty, I believe that on the main PCSX2 page where you download that, where it says:

PCSX2 1.2.1 Standalone Installer - Version:1.2.1

This is the PCSX2 1.2.1 full installer package for Windows.

I think that it should say there "Includes the AVG toolbar installation, which can be opted out of." I think this would solve the "hapless user" problem.

[Clank]

I've read through this and wanted to add my thoughts to the matter.

As far as the AVG thing goes, I understand both sides of the argument. I see why most of the people against it are, I mean unless I'm mistaken it's literally adware. I also see the argument that people are putting for it, I mean it is a decent source of income and quite frankly, people that are knowledgeable enough to dump their PS2 bios and games are probably the same type of people that would watch for that. Honestly, in my opinion, both sides have solid points.

As far as the plugin system goes, I'm all for a single application with no plugins, except for a couple of issues,

1. Cross platform stuff, unless Gregory has done a ton of work since I last looked, Gdsx is still a bit iffy on Linux, especially on the hardware renderer, I mean he's doing great work, I'm just not sure it's quite ready to replace ZZOgl (or whatever it's called). Another issue is the pad plugin, I'm not even sure that lilypad works on Linux. Not to mention, does the plugin to emulate the network adapter even work on Linux?

Basically, my point is that even if we wanted to move to a plugin system, it would take a lot of work just to make stuff compatible across operating systems.

2. Specialty plugins, there are a lot of plugins lying around to do specific stuff, mainly stuff that wasn't widely used by games, like I think there's a plugin somewhere that emulates the hard drive just enough to play one of the FF games that relies on it (not positive on that though), so outright removing plugins would force people to use older version of Pcsx2 if they want to use those plugins.

I think that a plugin free system is the ideal in the long run, but it isn't something Pcsx2 can accomplish overnight, rather I think it needs to be phased in. I would suggest a system much like how the current disk situation is, you can use the internal loader or you can use a plugin to load disks. I would propose picking the best plugin (at least for graphics, sound, and maybe pad) and building it into Pcsx2 while keeping the option to use a separate plugin.

Doing this would require a lot of work, and if these devs are serious about helping out if the AVG toolbar is removed, then I would suggest removing it, as I don't see any other way that Pcsx2 would accomplish these goals.

But that's just my opinion.

[JMC47]

You're defending outright viruses and spyware. Avih asked what was wrong. I went through and attempted to make my computer just like it was before I installed the AVG toolbar. Even after removing the "apparent" changes, there were registry changes and stuff running on the task manager that were suspicious. If this is not enough to convince you, I will use sandboxie and detail every little thing this thing changes. I really didn't want to do this again, but I feel that the users deserve better.

And yes, I was on the fence about the morality thing before I tried it; this is REALLY awful spyware at this point. One missed click, one user "afraid" to use custom installation because it's considered more advanced, and boom, there you go. And it has trackers, it gathers information about the user (and I will bring further information once I'm done analyzing things)

It IS spyware: "software that enables a user to obtain covert information about another's computer activities by transmitting data covertly from their hard drive."

It IS Adware: "software that automatically displays or downloads advertising material (often unwanted) when a user is online."

The ads: It puts fake download buttons on pages that are fairly convincing which downloads even more adware. Wonderful

It is likely Malware: "software that is intended to damage or disable computers and computer systems." You could argue that it's more intended to mine data and serve ads, but it damaged my experience by disabling my settings and plugins that I installed. There is no way in hell that it should be allowed to do all of that all because I DIDN'T change a checkmark. Warning the users isn't the solution, removing the spyware from your installer is.

And I'm sorry, but your "removal" without virus scanners and spyware removers was likely incomplete. Tons of registries are left changed, I had suspicious new listings on my task manager... come on. I'll come back with more to prove my point.

[Blyss Sarania]

@Clank - 1. lilypad doesn't work on linux. Also I am not sure if GSdx OGL is better than ZZOGL on Linux or not. I tested both one time, recently, to help troubleshoot a problem for someone. Both worked okay for me.

[Blyss Sarania]

You're defending outright viruses and spyware.

I am defending what you think are viruses and spyware. I don't think it's viral. I did say in my post that it could however be considered spyware, depending on the definition.

It is likely Malware: "software that is intended to damage or disable computers and computer systems." You could argue that it's more intended to mine data and serve ads, but it damaged my experience by disabling my settings and plugins that I installed. There is no way in hell that it should be allowed to do all of that all because I DIDN'T change a checkmark. Warning the users isn't the solution, removing the spyware from your installer is.

I gave you my opinion. That is yours. I definitely disagree that it is malware.

And I'm sorry, but your "removal" without virus scanners and spyware removers was likely incomplete. Tons of registries are left changed, I had suspicious new listings on my task manager... come on. I'll come back with more to prove my point.

I am pretty sure my removal was very complete. And it wasn't a removal without virus scanners, I said in my post I used Kaspersky. There is nothing suspicious in her task manager. There are possibly registry entries, I will give you that. But they are meaningless without the software to go with them. You are talking to someone with a degree in computer science, so please at least give me a little more credit than that.

[JMC47]

Sorry, was a bit emotionally charged; I didn't really expect much defense to this practice. Just... I struggle to understand why you would side with it? Is the money that much to sway opinion? Is there some huge leap in logic that I'm simply not understanding?

I'm totally in understanding if you say "Yes, we understand it will harm our users that install it and it is something designed to mine data/serve ads, but we need the money for our project." If you are saying "AVG isn't spyware or adware, and doesn't do things that your users don't intend," then I have to accuse you of being under some kind of contract not to say anything negative about it or something. That's all I can think. There is no way in hell a computer science major doesn't understand what the AVG toolbar is. Go ahead, google it. Read the pages I linked, even.

I'm at a loss. If you still disagree, I'll leave it at that, no amount of explaining, no amount of proof, no amount of user experience will matter. There are other matters than this, and I don't really think it's positive to dwell on it.

edit: I added a few words to be less rude. I didn't intend to be rude, just direct.

clarification: I want to make sure people understand I delve back into this because Avih basically asked what's so bad about the toolbar. That's why I was a bit offended, after spending 2+ hours fighting with it, that it's not spyware/adware by every definition of the word.

[Blyss Sarania]

Sorry, was a bit emotionally charged; I didn't really expect much defense to this practice. Just... I struggle to understand why you would side with it? Is the money that much to sway opinion? Is there some huge leap in logic that I'm simply not understanding?

I'm totally in understanding if you say "Yes, we understand it will harm our users that install it and it is something designed to mine data/serve ads, but we need the money for our project." If you are saying "AVG isn't spyware or adware, and doesn't do things that your users don't intend," then I have to accuse you of being under some kind of contract not to say anything negative about it. That's all I can think. There is no way in hell a computer science major doesn't understand what the AVG toolbar is. Go ahead, google it. Read the pages I linked.

I'm at a loss. If you still disagree, I'll leave it at that, no amount of explaining, no amount of proof, no amount of user experience will matter.

I will be completely honest here.

First of all, I said twice here that it could be considered spyware. And I will definitely say it is adware, because adware to me means "A product that serves ads." It does that, so it is that. It is not something I personally want on my computer. I said that too.

I support it for two reasons: Although I wasn't involved in the decision, I believe that our developers heavily considered the pros and cons when making this decision. I do not personally know why they did it, but I believe that if they did it, they have a good reason. I trust them, so I support their decisions. However, I am not blind, I can see why people say it is undesirable software, that it is adware, that it is spyware. That brings me to my second point:

I personally do not believe it is any more harmful than a lot of other things people take for granted. I will give you examples:

1 - Steam scans your computer when you add a program to it. They have knowledge of every program installed on your computer, from 7-zip, to 3d pornography games.

2 - Google and Google Chrome keep track of your browsing habits in order to improve and direct their Adsense service. Google knows every search that you have EVER done.

3 - Off the internet, you are tracked everywhere. You know those little "discount cards" that supermarkets and such have? They know every single item you have ever bought at the store. And it's tied to your name. They know if you paid with credit, or debit, or whatever. This information is all put together to produce a profile of you as a shopper, and it heavily affects television and other advertisements, as well as what products a store carries, and what goes on sale.

I can keep going, but I don't think I need to. Ultimately what I am saying is that I believe this program is no more insidious or evil than those things. Big brother is all around us, and personally there are a huge amount of things that worry me far more in the grand scheme of things than a toolbar that serves ads. It's not my favorite thing in the world, but I simply don't think it is as bad people are making it out to be, in the grand scheme of things. I read all sorts of things on the internet when this decision was made, and even back then, I and most of are users still supported it.

I don't know how to be any more honest than this. I've stated my opinion as best as I can.

[BlackTelomeres]

Sounds pretty bad to be entirely honest. I didn't realize antivirus companies were starting to make their own adware or potentially spywarelike programs.

As far as Chrome and Steam, some people will actually actively avoid such programs. So it's not like everyone does or should take them for granted. Personally, I don't use Chrome or Steam. Google searching is a lot more insidious though, since Google clearly has better search results than any other engine I've tried, so it's very hard to avoid using it.

[avih]

The way kolphin worded his post is the reason I called it BS. If there was some actual backing for what he was saying then I wouldn't have a problem. I'm fine with actual discussion that helps move the project. To me it just seemed like a way to get a few of us to start flaming and I wasn't going to deal with that.

Even if that's true, surely calling his argument BS will not put any discussion back on track to being constructive. His wording could have been better, but the argument is valid and hence worth discussing IMO.

[JMC47]

Thank you for the well reasoned and explained response, Blyss. I have my own thoughts on the matter.

If you really think AVG isn't spyware, why not go ask third parties? Put up a poll somewhere neutral?

Which do you consider spyware, Steam or AVG Toolbar?

Which do you consider adware? AVG Toolbar or Google Chrome?

I don't think the results will be in your favor. I don't think it matters, either; I think all of that was well known before any deal was signed. I don't get why it's being argued now.

About the spyware thing: I will back that up with results from sandboxie. The difference between steam and this AVG stuff, is that Steam scans games to add to your library. And, according to them, they don't store it, they don't care what programs you run, or anything else. You authorize it to do that, it is an expected behavior of a program... that basically acts as a launcher for games, right? Am I crazy? Steam sells and launches and catalogs games... I don't see how it's ridiculous for me to allow it. It is not spyware, because it's not covertly doing it; it is an expected behavior. On top of that, when I uninstall steam, it's gone, and I can install it elsewhere if I want.

Edit2: Steam doesn't send what games you have to any kind of server based on what I looked up. It stores what games you have on your computer in your library. Games you bought from them, are obviously tracked, though, but non steam titles in the list are for you.

So, let's see, AVG Toolbar installation. Disabling adblock? No, that's not for me, that's not to help me. That's so they make more money. I can already guess your argument "You authorized the installation by not unchecking some boxes in an installer for a completely unrelated program." That's not a serious answer in my eyes. Injecting fake download buttons into my browser for products unrelated to what I was searching for. DEFINITELY not an expected behavior. I had used AVG at some point in my life, and I've accidentally installed these installers. You know what happens? I sigh, I bang my keyboard, and I have to start researching how to remove them. It's never a happy thing, and I hate to see a program I like to use including something so nefarious (in my eyes.)

About Google: Oh yes, a search engine, that you use to search, uses your search results in order to search things better. It makes money off of advertisements, so be it, you're searching a public library, it's all but expected. If I want a private search engine, I'll log out, use a VPN, etc. And even then, you're getting something out of using google. You use it because it provides the best search results, you use it because it is mostly open and fair.

Let's say AVG was an actual virus scanner, then maybe scanning viruses on my computer would make sense, right? That way it interacting with my files But it's not; we're installing a TOOLBAR, it says that plainly in the installer. It has no business EVEN touching anything other than the browsers, which it obviously does. Where the hell does it say in the tiny blurb of text that it's allowed to disable my plugins for my browsers? Change my preferences, even beyond the homepage? And injecting fake download buttons in my browser sure is a legitimate thing for a toolbar to do.

How many users do you really expect to click through the full page of information on the AVG toolbar in the installer of PCSX2? I really don't know. Can we at least agree the AVG Toolbar is undesirable to 99% of the people who have installed it? Let's check the top search result for "AVG Toolbar" in google, from a private window in Firefox. Oh, a GUIDE on how to remove it! It ends up above the actual AVG products themselves!

On top of all that AVG Safeguard could be used as an attack vector: http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/960193 That is fixed now, thanks to it being reported, but the possibility always exists that another bug could be abused in a similar manner. The reason this attack even could happen is that AVG Toolbar acts like a rootkit in order to do what it does, opening up possible vulnerabilities in the Operating System.

edit: Added Blyss to the top line since posts ended up posting between the start and creation of my post.